Tyondai Braxton “I’m allowed to love this music.”

If asked, I'm hard-pressed to conjure up a figure in independent music who demonstrates more originality and sheer depth of musical knowledge than Tyondai Braxton. While much has been made of his relationship to his father — avant-garde composer/saxophonist Anthony Braxton — and his key-role in Battles, Braxton has more than earned individual distinction. Over the last 10 years, he's been honing complex, foreign sounds into his solo-craft by fine-tuning the weirdness until it became something altogether magical: a cyclone of looping guitars, vocal percussion, and nearly everything in between.

But what's the real point of musical knowledge or the pursuit of knowledge in music? A lofty question, sure, but one Braxton suggests has everything to do with the "mysticism of music" and the individual. Listening to his latest album Central Market (a soon-to-be released, full-scale orchestral endeavor), I can't help thinking what personifies Braxton's music is the creative courage to venture into what isn't understood yet — the mystery nearly impossible to pin down. It is, in a word, brave.

Here, a very amicable yet deep Braxton discusses aesthetics, "double-definitions," conservatories, the "Battles engine," and doing his part to help dispel the elitism often plaguing classical music — or any music for that matter.

----

----
----

How are things going today?

Not too bad, man. I got home about a half hour ago, a long day at the office. Battles is rehearsing right now and writing music. After this interview, I'm gonna open a couple beers and just turn-off — get totally wasted after this interview. [Laughs]

Sounds great. Kind of a longwinded question, but bear with me. The composer Charles Ives talked about practicing piano with his father and how his father would have him play and sing two different scales at once in order to help "stretch his ears." What do you make of the concept of "stretching one's ears" or expanding one's musical acceptance and do you have any hope your music would help accomplish such an effect on an audience or listener?

Of course. I have faith that people can listen to music and enjoy it even when it's complex. It just has to be presented right. The hope that I have for this record is that people's perception of classical music [as] being kind of elitist and for a very exclusive few [changes]. Hopefully, people will realize that that's not what this record is about. I feel like it's a very inclusive record, and I hope people will be able to appreciate that -- though it's complex, it's also fun. It's a record that, hopefully, people will be able to enjoy [...] Maybe even, for people who are fans of the band and not so much into classical music, I'd hope this record could get some people intrigued in that kind of music.

Totally. You mentioned it's fun to listen to — I wanted to ask about this aspect of Central Market in particular. I've listened to the album several times — I really like it, first of all — and I noticed the first half of the record contains humor with the use of whistles, kazoos, "boings," etc. but near the end it unravels and becomes very dark, almost Hitchcockian. Because it starts off so happy-go-lucky and by the end turns grim, self-destructive, and cynical, do you interpret the humor in the very beginning as tongue-in-cheek or parody? Is it still supposed to fun?

Yeah, I mean, I kind of leave that up to people as far as how they want to interpret that type of feeling. On one hand, it's tongue-in-cheek, on the other hand, it's sincerely happy, on the other hand, it's totally naive in a way. I agree with the term "cynical," as it moves towards the end. One thing, when you look at the cover art, it kind of explains it too. Where you have the really fantasy-based guy, the guy with the little ducks coming out his sleeves, the butcher, and then the flower guy. I look at the music in the same way where you have this fantasy, almost unreal kind of life in the beginning, and it slowly starts to become real. Of course, "real" in this context is a little more cynical and a little less bright — but maybe that's my own perspective.

So, not only in each piece do I think of the word "polarity" a lot -- the positives and negatives at the same time, double definitions of the same part -- not only on an immediate level was I conscious of that, but on the long term, from point A to Z in the span of the record, I try to blend an overall positive with an overall negative. You know what I mean?

----
"... isn't that kind of the thing that everyone enjoys about music? It's not what they understand about it, it's what they don't understand."
----

Yeah. The idea of "double-definition" is particularly interesting. I know some people have made comparisons to Elfman and cartoons, but the initial feeling I got listening to the record reminded me of the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit? a little bit. The movie has themes almost too bleak to be a kids cartoon, but it also gets at the darker side of things where reality sets in. Maybe the record can be taken many different ways because of the polarity you're talking about.

I feel like each piece has its own set of variables. I've heard some of those early takes on the first thing I put up, the single ("Uffie's Woodshop"). On one hand, it's like "Oh, it sounds like cartoons," or Danny Elfman, or this and that. For me, that's like a very simple reduction of it. I feel like there's a lot of polarity within those pieces. Where I could see comparisons of that, I think once people listen to the whole span of the record, they'll see that there's a real life that's moving through the whole series. The pieces aren't so easily happy just as they're not so easily dark. The last piece, "Dead Strings," is definitely more sinister than the beginning, but it still has a sense of humor a little bit. It almost becomes a parody of itself in its creepiness. Sort of like an unsuccessful haunted house kind of thing. But maybe that's just me. [Laughs]

I think each of those mixed-moments, the more hilarious, funny, or fun and the really dark moments are heightened by the polarities. If it was all completely dark or completely upbeat, you wouldn't get that kind of a feeling. Another artist who deals with both of those worlds — who I got turned onto from something you posted a while ago — is the band Extra Life from Brooklyn. I was curious about that relationship. I understand Charlie Looker studied with your father in school; is that how you came in contact with his music?

We'd been friends when he was a student there [Wesleyan University] and, believe it or not, we were actually in a band together a couple years back for a little bit and then we all went our separate ways. But I've always admired Charlie; I really like his aesthetic. I like where he's come — he's one of those cats [who's] always been really good; he's always had his own vibe. So, it's been exciting to kind of watch him do his thing, and I think his most recent project is amazing.

Absolutely. I got a chance to talk to him a little while ago. Super-inspiring to talk to someone that's that committed to what they're doing but still very excited, in general. I was so relieved he wasn't a dark figure or anything! Just the coolest guy to talk to.

He's a guy who has the same kind of balance. You hear his music, and it's very spirited; you could say it's dark or light or whatever, but "spirited." When you talk to him, he has such a funny sense of humor. So, I think he really understands that balance too, which is cool.

You mentioned school and that side of your education. Many people have different takes on what music school is about. I ended up going to school for that, but I know a lot of people who look down on it or have different takes on what their experience was like — a lot of my friends had negative experiences. What about your constitution made you want to pursue music school and composition? Did it ever feel stifling to you at all?

You know, it was. But I kind of feel like that's how it is with any of the creative studies where you take away a lot from it and you also have to unlearn a lot of it. In particular, music school is a weird thing because, in comparison to art school, I really appreciate the art school mentality or at least what I perceive it to be, being that I actually didn't go. Having a lot of friends in art school, aesthetic is a large part of what it means to hone yourself as an artist whereas that's not really taught in music school. Music school, more than just being conservative, you say "Okay, well, I'm going to the conservatory" and then teachers kind of abrade you with the history of things. And they say, "Well, of course we're not going to talk about things that are happening now like rock and hip-hop. This is a conservatory." But one thing I felt a lot of music schools overlook is aesthetics and how to define these principles that you're taught in [...] a modern sense — whatever that means.

I found that, after going to school, I really hated school. I don't want to say "I hated it," but I rejected a lot of it. I didn't understand it. But I have to admit, as time has gone on and as I've gotten older, there were things I could, for sure, say really did benefit me — such as taking harmony classes, in particular ear-training: solfege, being able to sing pitches and understand the relationship between intervals and stuff. Just like the scientific, very fundamental things that were very helpful. But the thing that took me a long time to shave off was — kind of like I'm saying — the kind of person you have to be in order to appreciate that music. That's always been a thing I just didn't understand. You have an association with this very exclusionary, exclusive, very cerebral, very academic way of looking at music. And you say to yourself, "Wow, so I guess that's classical music. I guess that means I'm not allowed to enjoy it unless I know the rulebook." But in a way, as I got older, suddenly I'm like "You know what? I love this music! I actually really love this music, and I'm allowed to love this music." You know what I mean? [Laughs]

I don't know how else to explain it. Maybe that was just my experience, but like the question you're saying, I kind of have a feeling it's not just me that had that kind of experience.

----
"I've heard some of those early takes ... On one hand, it's like "Oh, it sounds like cartoons," or Danny Elfman, or this and that. For me, that's like a very simple reduction of it."
----

It seems like what you're talking about is reconciling the past experiences and being able to understand what you've taken away from it — to feel guilt-free about it. I guess if you didn't go to school you also wouldn't have picked up Sibelius too, right?

Yeah, I'll put it to you like this: I certainly don't regret going to school. If anything, I'm really glad I did. I definitely got more out of it than I did being frustrated by it. You know, it's a couple things. I grew up with a lot of modern, new music, and classical and jazz playing in the house — my dad's a composer. So, I was kind of in that environment. Of course, when you're young, you reject it and I liked music from my generation. I'm not that kid that was so cool I was listening to Schoenberg at 12 or something. I was not like that. I was a kid who was into hip-hop and rock that was on the radio — music that spoke to me and people my age. I started to find myself drawn to the mysticism of music that was seemingly more complicated.

In a way, isn't that kind of the thing that everyone enjoys about music? It's not what they understand about it, it's what they don't understand. That's kind of the lure. It turns into this magic thing. After playing in punk bands and rock bands, suddenly you kind of realize how those songs are built and you realize how those things go. The mystique kind of dissipates, you know? But, for me, I kind of still yearned to seek that mysticism in music. After a while, it's just like anything — once you've absorbed that, you want more and you need the next level of that. So, at least for me, the next level of that was music that was more complicated in different ways. Suddenly, I found myself saying "I really do love composition and this and that."

But it took me up until maybe the past three or four years to realize that I really wanted to be involved that intimately with music like this. It was a reconciling of my past, from my own life, and it was also this sudden consciousness that, I have to admit, school did give me in some ways. And, of course, playing with the band, having these experiences with these guys and having my own music — feeling like I needed to push the solo music a little bit more and take it to the next level. So, it's all these elements that combined. I'm sorry, I'm totally [giving] a long-winded answer here. [Laughs]

No, it's cool — some of these are long-winded questions, so I appreciate it. In the press release, it mentions how Stravinsky was a pretty key inspirational figure when working on this music. Were you initially drawn to his stuff in your studies? Was that something that came about recently?

I've always been a fan of him. [For] the press release, I'm actually kind of regretting that I zoned in on him in particular. I am a huge Stravinsky fan and he really resonated with me — he was one of the first kind of modern/romantic composers that I really latched onto. I felt he really understood something that was beyond just the form of a very rigid and academic framework for music on that scale. The middle piece on the record, "Platinum Rows," I was definitely listening to him and his form. In particular, this piece called "Song of the Nightengale," I definitely referenced it -- not outright, but I learned a lot about form from that piece in relationship to "Platinum Rows."

So, yeah, I appreciate him. I appreciate a lot of composers from that era: Varèse [...] I like some of the earlier stuff too, from Bach to Beethoven. I'm sure, as I get older, I'm gonna find myself diving into more of that music as it's kind of building blocks for the pieces that I've been listening to nowadays. I'm so intrigued by the mass of sound that you can get from a group of that size. And listening to what composers have done over the past hundred years is really, really exciting to me.

----
"I found that, after going to school, I really hated school. I don't want to say "I hated it," but I rejected a lot of it. I didn't understand it."
----

It's cool to hear that take on it. I know that you've performed quite a bit, over the years, as a solo artist aside from Battles. Do you have any intention of performing this music in a public forum or live?

I definitely do. It's uncertain when I'm going to be able to do it. Like I said, I'm slammed right back into Battles' world right now. I really want to promote — not only promote — but I really want to play this music. I'm really excited to perform it. So, if not this year, then very early next year, I'll hopefully be able to do a handful of performances. I definitely won't be able to tour, not only because of my schedule, but also with the amount of people it would involve. So, I think just a handful of special shows we'll end up doing.

That sounds really cool. With the Battles stuff, what's the plan for that band? What are you guys up to? Obviously rehearsing, since you were practicing today — but what's next?

We're in the very, very early stages of writing right now. We're getting the ball rolling. It takes us a very long time to start our engines, and we work very slowly. But, in working slowly, we have a very tight hold on our method of quality control as far as how we compose these pieces. So, it takes a long time, but hopefully it'll be worth it.

I'd read somewhere that when you were in school, you'd been a fan of Don Caballero and actually learned some of those songs on guitar and it aided your training in certain ways. I was curious about that initial spark, when you met Ian Williams in New York. Were you ever intimidated at all, being a fan of his music? I understand you guys obviously have a sincere mutual respect now as bandmates and that's probably grown over the years. But what was that initial moment like, when you decided to pursue music together?

Yeah, it was a very natural kind of thing. Funny story: I think he had just moved to New York and I'd just moved to New York — so we must have moved around the same time. He'd just left Don Caballero and I'd heard he was doing a show at CBGBs. So, I was like "Oh man, I really wanna check that out." But I actually ended up getting into a really, really big fight right before the show with somebody. I got through this huge fight, was totally bummed out, and I was late and I missed his show. But I saw him hang around the bar, and I went up to him and introduced myself. I was like, "Hey, just want to introduce myself. I'm a big fan. I know you just moved to New York. We should play together sometime." And he was like, "Yeah, sure!" It was kind of like a casual thing.

Then I'd just see him around New York and I invited him to some of my solo shows. We started coming together and we weren't even going to form like a legit band. We were just gonna play together and have it be this loose thing. We ended up falling into having a band together, so it was cool. I admire Ian and I think he's a great musician. And the same with Dave and the same with John. I'm really glad to be working with these guys — they're great guys and hopefully we can keep this engine going.

Photo: [Micl]