Earlier this year, two of TMT’s favorite artists, Meg Baird and Lea Cho (Blues Control), had a hearty conversation via Skype. One might even call it epic. It was held just a few weeks before Baird released her new Drag City album Don’t Weigh Down The Light, which TMT writer Willcoma described in his review as “a brilliantly tempered foray into instrumental drift and comparatively lavish production that suits her breathy, ever-yearning vocals marvelously.” Cho — whose latest album with Blues Control, Valley Tangents, was released in 2012, followed by last year’s brilliant NewHive collaboration — has been an interviewee twice at Tiny Mix Tapes, but here she takes on the role of interviewer, asking Baird questions about her touring inspirations, playing Frisbee, and recording her new album.
It’s a lengthy read, but it’s balanced by the musicians’ unequivocal understanding of each other, resulting in a discussion that has a decidedly different feel and dynamic than the typical interview at TMT. Because of this, we have decided to publish the interview in full and with little editing. Scroll and enjoy!
Meg Baird: It’s nice to see you!
Lea Cho: It’s nice to see you too! This is really funny.
M: Weird future context, in our crazy garage kitchen.
[laughing]
L: So.. the new record is awesome, Russ and I both love it a lot.
M: Aw, thanks.
L: It sounded great un-mastered, but then mastered it was super great.
M: Oh good.
L: It was very cohesive. There’s one track that I think changed from the un-mastered version — the all-vocal track? [“Leaving Song”]
M: Yeah.
L: Was that tacked on to the un-mastered version to do something later?
M: It was tacked on, yeah.
L: So did you not know if you were going to use it? [“Leaving Song” is a vocal-only mix from “Even the Walls Don’t Want You To Go”]
M: Yeah, I think I first thought I wasn’t going to use it at all. And then I had kept this a cappella version of it with the full singing part. Maybe I thought I could do a fun little extra bit, not on the record, like do a little video to that. You know, “doing the right thing,” coming up with a promotional object.
[laughing]
L: I know what you mean.
M: People who were around during the recording, like Noel [von Harmonson] and Ethan [Miller] and Eric and Bob, they liked it a lot, and so I decided to put at least a snippet of it on there. Just kind of add it in there as a Side One ender.
L: Yeah, that was really nice I thought.
M: Thanks.
L: Was it influenced by anything? Or did you just come upon it when you were mixing? Like, “Oh, all the vocals just by themselves sound good.”
M: Yeah, it was just a mixing thing. We were doing headphones and just trying to layer it out. Way more through hunt-and-peck, where I was just filling in, you know, just doing it by ear, not by composition or theory. Just hitting empty places that could use another interval… I think it’s five, it’s five total.
L: Oh wow, that’s awesome. And it’s all you, right?
M: It’s all me, yeah.
L: Yeah, that’s what I thought. That’s cool, five of you!
[laughing]
L: So you mentioned, who was it, Bob and Eric?
M: Mm-hm.
L: Is that who recorded? I don’t know who those two are.
M: That’s Eric Bauer, who —
L: Oh ok, yeah.
M: — San Francisco recording and music-in-general, person. It’s his studio where we recorded. It’s not quite an official capacity studio, but sometimes people refer to it as Bauer Mansion, or just Eric Bauer’s studio. [laughs]
L: But he’s recorded a lot of people that we know, right?
M: Yeah, tons of people. Lots of Ty [Segall] stuff, lots of White Fence stuff, lots of Oh Sees stuff, and then he’s just been involved in music here even longer than that too.
L: Oh, he’s a musician?
M: Yes! And also he did the Hexadic recording for Ben [Chasny].
L: Oh yeah.
M: He did Ethan’s record this year. A ton of people I knew were in there already. Some of the only musicians I even know in San Francisco. He also recorded the Heron Oblivion record — we did that there.
It’s great to have a mixture of deadlines and also just loose, you know, let’s just do this for the hell of it, for fun.
L: So, how did Heron Oblivion come about? Just a live thing first?
M: I think it started as an offshoot of something that — I’m not even sure this is correct, but Noel and sometimes Ethan? They have a project band, they were calling it Wicked Mace. An umbrella name for any assortment of musicians playing together.
L: Right.
M: And then… Charlie and I have rehearsal space here in the city, and I think we just got together to see what would happen. It’s been fun to do some drumming again.
L: Cool.
M: I think it started out just way looser, and kind of more instrumental, jammy stuff. Especially since Ethan in particular is such a great documentarian at rehearsals, it kind of just started coming together, like, “Oh we actually have material we could turn into stuff.”
L: That’s awesome.
M: Then we just got a show offer from Adam of War on Drugs. He was like, “Oh, you should play.” And we were like, really? [laughs] Our first live show to a sold-out crowd at the Independent? We didn’t even have to try and invite anyone!
L: Yeah!
M: And so that also helped us to arrive at, “Well, I guess we need to figure out what we’re gonna do.”
L: It’s nice to have a deadline of something.
M: Yeah, when you’re working on project-type stuff like that, it’s great to have a mixture of deadlines and also just loose, you know, let’s just do this for the hell of it, for fun.
L: Cool.
M: That’s basically… but yeah, we’re working pretty hard I guess, rehearsing regularly.
L: Oh nice. You think that that band will tour?
M: Probably not much, between crazy schedules, jobs, and —
L: Yeah.
M: Yeah, I don’t think it’ll be much. But enough just to at least get out there.
L: That’s cool. So, you play drums in that band. You sing too, right?
M: I sing too. Which wasn’t really my expectation walking in. I didn’t think that was gonna happen, but somehow it did.
[laughing]
L: So, I guess you’re officially no longer in Watery Love?
M: I guess. I had to find out all the news by Facebook, it was really sad. [laughs] No, I’m just kidding. But the Facebook part is true.
[laughing]
L: It’s a lot of distance, so…
M: Yeah, no, I just think it’s impossible. But yeah, it was pretty funny, I was like, “Wait, they’re still playing without me.”
[laughing]
L: Yeah, but I have to say, pretty much everyone acknowledges it’s a totally different thing now. It’s a totally different band.
M: That’s good.
L: It couldn’t be the same, really. ‘Cause you know Dan’s not playing with them, anyway. [Dan Dimaggio of Home Blitz]
Max and Meg (Watery Love) and Lea (Blues Control) discussing how to split money as uber-fairly as humanly possible after playing a Philly diy show together in 2009. [Photo by Nick Branigan]
M: Right, and Dan’s not. So the original rhythm section has moved on to different things. So I’m glad that they’re still…[laughs] I enjoyed “Meg’s Dreamcatcher” a lot. [“Meg’s Dreamcatcher” is a Watery Love song that was released on a Pitchfork magazine split 7-inch with Kurt Vile in 2014. The song is only two guitars, no rhythm section.]
L: That was awesome; I liked that too.
M: Yeah, just the two of them. [Max Milgram and Richie Charles]
L: I actually don’t know why they called it — like what it’s really about, but I liked it.
M: It’s about — it’s pretty —
M & L: …pretty literal?
[laughing]
L: Yeah, that’s what I thought.
M: Because Richie moved into my apartment after I moved. [in Philly, when Meg moved to San Francisco]
L: Right.
M: So I left a few key things, I mean that we discussed, it wasn’t like I was leaving my junk around — I cleaned up — but there were some useful furniture items that he was interested in having, stuff like that, so I left that there, but I also had this dreamcatcher that I left as well — I did not buy that thing either.
L: Oh really?
M: No, it just came to me — do you know Kate Abercrombie?
L: Yeah.
M: She’s an awesome artist and good friend of mine, and her baby sister is a bit of a hippie girl, like follows Rat Dog around in the summer, you know. She attends a hippie-leaning college in Vermont; I forget which one. The dreamcatcher was hers, and it was kind of broken and on a trash pile, but she had to get rid of it and I felt sorry for it, so I took it home and repaired it.
L: Oh that’s cool.
M: And then left it for Richie. It’s a really boring story, but that’s why it’s there. Apparently it really cracked him up. So… it’s very literal, not that exciting. Like the backstories behind all Watery Love songs.
[laughing]
L: I was just going to say, it’s very fitting.
M: Yes.
L: Nothing abstract at all is possible.
M: Yes, just a boring snippet from everyday life.
L: As bleak and mundane as possible.
M: Yeah, all that stuff.
L: So would you say that your [new solo] record is about your move — or influenced by your move to San Francisco?
M: I would say it’s really influenced by it.
L: That’s what I thought when I was listening to it.
M: Yeah, you know, in a broader, abstract kind of way. But yeah, it’s really, really influenced by the move. And just distance. Themes of distance and memory.
L: Yeah, I felt like it was looking back a lot.
M: Yeah, reflecting back. Not in a nostalgic kind of way, more like how your brain works adaptively to form new attachments. Like, how do you find your bearings? You don’t necessarily recreate all the things that you had, but it’s a relational thing — it’s something you can almost feel happening in your brain, your neurology.
L: Totally.
M: How do you really make sense of these new things, and try to belong somewhere?
L: Yeah.
M: So I thought about that so much — I know it’s pretty abstract, but that was probably one of the recurring themes. And even some of the things, like having a reprise — reprise? I never know how to pronounce that word.
L: Me neither, actually!
[laughing]
L: I feel like I’ve heard it both ways, so…
M: Whichever is the best way to say it. But having that, and even that choice to throw that little snippet in that’s from another song. [“Leaving Song”]
L: Mm-hm.
M: The title goes back to a title track, but those aren’t even quite the words in the song, they’re a little different. Doubling back and weird markers. I played with that a lot I guess.
L: That’s cool, I didn’t make that connection, but I see that now. The referring-back —
M: Yeah.
L: And recurring themes. That’s interesting.
M: Yeah, and it’s not even like your memory’s that accurate all the time, and then sometimes you get flashes of hyper-accurate memory, and you’re like, “Whoa I don’t even remember it was like that!” It can feel like a dislodged piece of time — it’s really humbling to face. I think I was just attempting to hit on a neurological level, that strange way memory works.
L: Brain patterns.
M: Yeah, it’s in there. It’s a strange, human thing.
L: That’s interesting too because I feel like this record is dreamier. In a technical sense, it has more reverb than your last records, and maybe that goes along with that too?
M: Yeah.
L: Sort of like a mental state instead of stark reality?
M: Yeah, I definitely was trying to give myself the chance to go for a less realistic capture.
L: Yeah, I know what you mean.
M: And I just wanted to have color — the second record was more like pencils, sketches.
L: Yeah.
M: Color, color, color, color.
L: That’s cool.
M: More psychological, I guess. [laughs]
L: Yeah. Did that bring you to some direct influences, in terms of that sound? I know you mentioned, I think in an email, Virginia Astley?
M: Mm-hm.
L: And there was another one you mentioned…I can’t remember right now. [I went back and looked, it was Loren Auerbach & Bert Jansch: After the Long Night ]
M: Definitely Virginia Astley, but not as much about using the color or getting into more of the effects. I was really being more influenced by rock music and rock records. Like classic rock, you know, even like Live at Pompeii —
L: [laughs] Cool.
M: You know, not so much of, “I wanna dissect their sound and put it in and re-do it,” but just the way that all those sounds are lodged in my musical ear so deeply.
L: Totally.
M: I was pulling more on those influences than I have in other records, where I was obviously more folk-y, acoustic-y… And that was nice because there was just more gear around. Charlie’s got so much more electronic and rock gear, and Eric’s studio was really a fun place to use more effects.
L: I like it, I think it turned out really, really nice. So, bringing Max [Milgram] back into it —
M: [laughs]
L: I know that he’s a huge fan of those Gila records [guitarist Conny Veit from Popol Vuh’s band]. Did you ever talk to him about those? I heard maybe some influence — or the electric playing on your record just reminded me of Conny Veit. Did you play any electric, or was it Charlie?
M: Well, that’s all mostly Charlie, but Popol Vuh, that’s a huge — that was definitely one of the more, like, “Let’s really — ”
L: Really?
M: Yeah, like, “Let’s not shy away from this massive influence.”
L: That’s awesome.
M: You know, there are some influences that are more just sound or history, but that was one of the more concrete, shaping influences.
L: Yeah, I heard that in a huge way, and that made me really happy because I’m a huge fan of that era of Popol Vuh too.
M: Mm-hm.
L: That guitar playing was cool.
M: That’s very much Charlie’s guitar-work, and that was an early common ground that we found when we were first trying to play together as a duo, even just live, that was an early common reference point.
L: And also mixing the piano with that is a huge [Popol Vuh] influence, too. [on “Past Houses”]
M: Mm-hm.
L: And you played that piano, right, I’m assuming?
M: I did. Yeah, I played that piano.
L: That’s really great.
M: We got that one down because we were house sitting at a really nice house with a piano.
L: Wait, you wrote it there, or you recorded it there?
M: Yeah, we wrote it there because we had a piano… And we were just house sitting with views of the Pacific.
L: Oh cool! So did you guys demo everything at home before you went to Eric’s studio?
M: Umm… probably a lot of it was at least in some form of a demo, but this was the most on-the-fly I have ever worked.
L: Oh wow.
M: Things were really coming together in the studio. Nothing was blank-slate, all the songs had starting points, but… this was the first time I was able to work that way. Honestly, it’s just kind of how I had to work [laughs]. I was working at the Sierra Club, doing my day-job, leaving, walking over to Eric’s studio in Chinatown, and then working all night, waking up, going back to work.
L: No! Really?
M: Yeah… And then working the weekends. So, as far as prep time, you know, when you do playback and you kind of finesse some lyrics, or reevaluate performances… I didn’t have that. And since I wasn’t totally-prepared, as in totally knowing all the songs, I had to just… perform [snaps fingers].
L: Yeah, that’s cool.
M: I spent time demo-ing stuff up, so it certainly wasn’t totally on-the-fly. But it was edgy for me — I usually have the basics super mapped-out.
L: Totally.
M: It was hard, but it was good, it made me feel — I had to be a lot more vulnerable. I couldn’t be, you know, “Ms. Practice Practice” and fall back on that.
L: [laughs]
M: Not like, “Let’s get it in a couple takes, I know this!”
The ESP factor can be kind of spooky when it’s siblings, you know. [laughs] It’s beyond even like, somebody that you’ve collaborated with a lot. It gets pretty spooky and we just… know.
L: Do you think it helped to be working with Charlie, to be in that mode?
M: Oh yeah, it definitely did. Also just the way that Eric and Bob work in their studio, it felt a lot more — almost more artist-in-residence vs. full-on “We’re on the clock! We gotta get this!”
L: Yeah.
M: We didn’t want to go crazy over-schedule, but their deadlines weren’t as hard and fast as other places I’ve worked. And we’re all based here. It wasn’t as if I’d traveled there and was like, “I gotta leave in two weeks, so we have to finish…” And other projects were booked around mine too, so there was some softness to the schedule. So that was the first time I ever worked that way for my solo stuff.
L: That’s cool.
M: And Charlie’s input from his rock background was really fun to range out into that territory.
L: It sounds fun!
M: To get to mix the two. Because obviously I really like heavy music, rock music. It’s just, I’ve always been in quieter outfits before.
L: I know.
M: And kind of haven’t really had the gear, you know?
L: Yeah, I don’t know if people out in the world are aware that your musical knowledge is so wide. You know about so much stuff! So when you’re making a folk record, that’s a decision on your part to —
M: To focus, yeah, to narrow down.
L: Exactly.
M: Yeah, so that was really fun. And you know, it felt like a big expansion. For me, anyway. I don’t know how it sounds on the other side. [laughs]
L: Well, it’s definitely different. I knew when I first heard it that it was different in that way, but then I went back and listened to your earlier records again, and when I heard the first one, I was like, “Whoa!” I forgot that Dear Companion was that direct.
M: Spare, yeah, very spare.
L: It was super spare. Which is great, though. It’s great that you can range all the way around.
M: Charlie was also a good influence on the songcraft part, because I think I’ve always tended to be really trad and shied away from even things like bridges.
L: Mm-hm.
M: I was always kind of like, “Why bridges?”
[laughing]
L: Yeah.
M: And Charlie was very encouraging. “Just try it, they’re good. They work.” Like, “You can’t argue with every Beatles record and every…”
L: Right.
M: “Just try it on.” I was like, “Ok… you were right. Bridges work.”
L: [laughs]
M: That was fun, to throw some “songwriter” craft in there, and to be encouraged to branch out on the idea of songwriting itself. I don’t know if changes like these come through, or how they sound to other people on the other side —
L: Sure.
M: For me, it was a big — it was a leap. [laughs]
L: It sounded like a leap, but not a leap in a bad way like you were reaching. It sounded like a natural progression to me. I guess because I already know that you’re into that music too.
M: Mm-hm.
L: It sounded very comfortable. I was wondering, do you think this record is… Does it sound sadder than the other ones?
M: In some ways, it’s sadder, but…
L: But you’re not sadder these days, I know that you’re not sadder!
M: No, not sadder! Yeah, it’s supposed to be higher contrast.
L: Ohhh.
M: Sadder… and happier. You know, less middle-ground, less “soft line on a landscape.” More extreme, higher contrast in everything. More romantic.
L: Yeah. [laughs]
M: Greater depth of color. And that was, you know, it can seem kind of corny to be super influenced by place, but I totally am. It’s hard not to be.
L: No, you have to be.
M: Yeah.
L: I mean, especially a move that big.
M: Yeah. Where it’s like you’re in a whole different climate. It doesn’t even make sense to your internal compass… The Pacific Ocean is dominating this area, and it’s just very different from living in the Gulf Stream. So I feel like that’s something that gets into classic albums that are, you know, pegged as being Northern California.
L: Mm-hm.
M: But it was also my attempt to say, “Oh wait, I just might really get this myself even.”
[laughing]
M: “…Now that I’m living here, maybe I kind of get it! What ‘that thing’ is!”
L: Right.
M: So I was really reaching to try and get some of that “Crown of creation/No place to go” in there.
L: Yeah. And how long were you in Philly before you moved to San Francisco? Quite a while. So it’s a huge marker for change.
M: Over 15 years. 20? Almost 20 years?
L: Yeah.
M: And I grew up in South Jersey. So it’s like the same general metro area. [laughs]
L: Yeah, that’s a big one… So was there a conscious decision to not do any covers on this record?
M: It wasn’t a preset plan — I was open to covers, they just weren’t coming together, and by the time I realized it…
L: You didn’t need to.
M: Yeah. And the closer I got to that time period where you’re like, “Maybe I’ll throw this together” you know [laughs]. By that point I was like, “No, I think I’d rather not.” It’s the first time where I decided, “No, I think I’m actually going to just steal moves from songs that I might tend to cover and actually just write my own song.”
L: Did you think about having other people, besides you and Charlie, on the record? Or was it like, “Let’s do this as a duo.”
M: We did think about it. A lot of it was practicality. Again, that was a pretty strange and aggressive schedule, just working straight studio nights and day-job days. And then once we got rolling that way, it became really clear: “We should just keep it the two of us.”
L: Yeah, I think it was great.
M: I wound up scrapping one song when we were like, “I think we need a real bass player.” It just wouldn’t turn out and it never made it on the record. It was throwing the time off. It was throwing everything off, so it’s like… “Some other day.”
L: That’s cool. Yeah, I like that it’s just the two of you. I feel like it adds to the intimacy of the record.
M: Oh good.
L: So, did you sit in on the mastering session?
M: Not this time. It’s the first time I’ve not sat in on the mastering session. Also I worked with JJ at Golden, you know, one of the best…
L: Yeah.
M: And it was a tough record to master. It’s the first time I’ve ever had to push back and reject a version, which was scary to do. [laughs]
L: I know what you mean.
M: Yeah. So we had to push back. The first ones just weren’t working. I think the blend was pretty delicate, what we wound up with on the mix. And my vocals have a lot of air — really breathy, and it’s just tough to make sure you don’t squash things, or throw off the balance. When you are at the final stages and into the very nitty gritty of compression…
L: Yeah, it’s hard.
M: Compression is just not something I can speak to adeptly in any technical terms… I can only speak to it with what I hear, and what I’m very specifically feeling. Like where it’s “hitting” you. And that’s… you know [laughs] that’s difficult. Not easy for people who are working with you when you are splitting the hairs between using zero compression and almost no compression at all. Like, “I wish I could explain this to you.”
L: Yeah.
M: When you’re just using your own impressionistic language. When you’re at the mastering session, you can do that, but not via —
L: Email.
M: Email and production notes and stuff. You have to…
L: I know what you mean.
M: But it all wound up working really well.
L: That’s cool.
M: But it was a challenging mix, and JJ was so incredibly generous about it too.
L: So how long did you spend recording, and then mixing, total? I mean, I know it was on off-times only…
M: I think we did three weeks straight of crazy tracking, you know, in that insane schedule, nights and weekends around work. And then we found a few blocks of time into the next month to finish up. So I guess, about three weeks of solid tracking and getting things in order, and then, whatever days weren’t booked in December and January to finish it.
L: So what about the artwork? I noticed that this is the first record where you’re facing the camera?
M: I know. [laughing] It’s pretty weird, right?
L: Was that a decision?
M: Bold moves, bold moves from the West Coast.
[laughing]
L: Yup!
M: That actually just kinda came about, like many things about the record, learning to just go with what’s working. Instead of having this idea of what needs to happen and then chasing that down.
L: Mm-hm.
M: There’s a woman named Pony, well it’s Rachael Pony Cassells, but everyone calls her Pony. She’s just a great person, really cool artist, awesome person all around. She was in town and took some photos for another project that she was working on, and that image was one of them. I was pressed for time looking for artwork, and I was wondering, “Should I start from scratch? Or this great person who’s a friend and an artist just took these photos; maybe I should just use them?” [laughs] I probably had to convince myself that… it’s pretty normal and totally OK to put your face on a record with your name and voice on it.
L: [laughs] I know what you mean.
M: So maybe I’ll just do it this time.
L: I thought it turned out really nice. Did you process that a lot, or did Dan O [at Drag City] work that out?
M: I did some basic processing with color and contrast, you know, just as a guideline. But Dan did all the processing. Yeah, it was a black-and-white image — Pony takes these really super-long exposures in darkness by streetlight and other low light.
L: Ohhh.
M: So her work always has that warm noir quality to it. That dark contrast, that’s her style, but I just kind of emphasized it. I didn’t want it black and white, so I went with the colors, and fussed over color a really long time. [laughs] I was like, “Is it too blue? Is it too green? Too Blue?” [Joni Mitchell] And then I added a second piece of night photography by another friend. Do you remember Melissa Farley?
L: Yeah! Totally.
M: Yeah. So that’s her work. She also works with really long exposures with artificial night lighting.
L: Oh, cool.
M: And I also liked how everything felt a little off even with this very beautiful image of hers — everything doesn’t feel quite right. You’re not sure why that light is on, and why those cars are there, even though it’s probably just people camping.
L: [laughs] Mm-hm.
M: It’s just very much how things feel here right now. I’m sure they feel that way everywhere, but… there’s a heightened sense of, “Where on earth are we going?”
L: [laughs] I think I feel that too.
M: And the river’s low. The river’s pretty in the photo, but the river’s low even for the season. And you can start to see the drought —
L: Oh yeah, the drought…
M: You know, there’s just things… but it’s still really beautiful. I just wanted it to not seem like an idealized, “everything’s awesome.”
L: Sunny — sunny California.
M: Yeah, I just don’t feel like that’s the thing to say right now. Definitely not “everything’s awesome.”
L: Mm-hm. So are you planning to do anything more with the Baird Sisters? Is there any music coming out?
M: We don’t have any plans, unfortunately. We’re living pretty far apart now, but anything can happen. It would be nice to get that Grapefruit Series record out again, actually…
[The Baird Sisters lp Until You Find Your Green was released in a very limited run as part of the Grapefruit Record Club in 2012.]
L: I love that record! That record’s amazing.
M: I love the Grapefruit release. That was amazing to do that, but it would be really fun to find an outlet so that it’s more available.
L: I think more people need to be able to get it, I agree.
M: Yeah, just make it more accessible, in general.
L: Mm-hm. So I’m assuming writing and recording with your sister is a totally different vibe. [laughs]
M: Yeah.
L: So what is that normally like? For that record in particular, I guess — the Grapefruit record.
M: The Grapefruit record, that was pretty fun. It’s not even how we’ve always necessarily worked in the past, but — when I work with Laura — it’s always very easy. The ESP factor can be kind of spooky when it’s siblings, you know. [laughs] It’s beyond even like, somebody that you’ve collaborated with a lot. It gets pretty spooky and we just… know. There were a couple of days where I was hanging out with her, and we just recorded our playing for hours, just sketches, sketches, jammy, jammy stuff. And some of it was good, but it was also like three CDs worth of just playing, you know… And then I was on tour by myself in Europe, which can be pretty lonely.
L: Oh god, I can imagine.
M: A lot of time by yourself.
L: On the train, right?
M: On the train. So I just culled through everything on that tour.
L: Ohhh.
M: And kind of narrowed it down, got a whole complete picture from those sketches. To the point where we just needed to add a couple things, like maybe Laura’s got a good traditional that she wants to throw on there, or a new song from a different space than what’s on the core sketches. So that was my tour fun, focusing in, and then we just worked together at her house, just layering it on…
L: So you went back and mixed it and you did overdubs?
M: No, we just started from scratch.
L: Oh!
M: We just used those pieces. I narrowed it down like, “We should use this snippet, make this into a song, make this into a song,” and so then we just shaped the songs, and then recorded it at home.
L: And it was just you two at home, right? Recording.
M: Mm-hm.
L: What did you use, an 8-track?
M: No, she just used her home digital setup. I don’t even know what that setup is. She did all the recording.
L: That’s awesome.
M: And then she did Glenn’s [Glenn Jones] record right after that. And I think she’s doing another one for him now too.
L: Ohh, I didn’t know she recorded other people.
M: Yeah. She doesn’t do it except for friends and special cases. It’s just something she can do. Laura’s very much one of these insanely multi-talented people, where you’re just like…oh!
[laughing]
M: And she can really work well with recording, and then you find out she has a background in electrical engineering —
L: Oh, she does? [laughs]
M: This is not a person with any fear or issues with conquering technology.
[laughing]
L: That’s cool.
M: And she’s got great ears. She used to have a Tascam 4-track way back. That’s just something she’s been doing for so long.
L: Yup.
M: Ever since that type of home recording stuff became really accessible, she’s been at it. But I can’t remember what our setup was. A simple setup with that lighter version of Pro Tools that’s cheaper I think. And we weren’t going crazy. We were just like, probably not more than six to eight tracks.
L: Yeah, yeah. That’s cool. So, did you guys record as kids? I know you must have played together your whole life.
M: Yeah. She’s a bit older than I am too, so I think I was probably in high school when the Tascam came around. So that was, yeah… We definitely did a lot with that.
There’s something about the sitting still. So much sitting still. It’s no good for your brain and your body.
L: Do you still have that stuff?
M: I’m sure. Laura’s a good — she’s a much better archivist than I am. I’m sure she has —
L: Recordings?
M: At least some record of the early stuff. Yeah, I can send you some cassette tapes too from the days when we used to have our folk-y sister duo project. We would just play open mics around the greater Princeton area.
L: Oh wow. [laughs]
M: You know, it was just that funny “desktop publishing” time where people were like, “Oh I can print out a little tray for my cassettes.” So professional.
[laughing]
L: Yup.
M: So there’s some of those around.
L: So you made your own tapes and stuff?
M: Mm-hm.
L: Oh, wow.
M: There’s tapes that were available on the open mic circuit of the greater Princeton area.
L: That’s awesome.
M: In the 90s. [laughing]
L: Russ would probably love to see those.
M: Yeah, I’ll have to find some of those. I don’t have them with me now, but I know that there’s some around somewhere.
L: That’s cool.
M: I think that was part of the reason I got so excited about that Matthew Young stuff that came out —
L: Oh yeah, totally.
M: Those reissues that Drag City did.
L: Mm-hm.
M: I love picturing how he was right there. Right around the same time. Just living in Hopewell, NJ.
L: But you found that record before Drag City reissued it, right?
M: Mm-hm. Yeah, I mean, I didn’t find it personally. Nick Branigan [of Hands and Knees in Boston] has it.
L: Oh, that’s right! Nick, yeah.
M: Yeah, so I first heard it through Nick.
L: That’s cool, so have you thought about getting in touch with him? I know he’s still in the area. Russ knows — I forget where he is now.
M: Yeah, he’s around greater Princeton. No, I’ve never talked to him directly… In a really random chain of events, I received a customer service call from his partner, from his wife. [laughs]
L: What?
M: You can see the caller info for incoming calls…
L: Yeah…?
M: And…
L: And then it was his wife?
M: So I saw “Matthew Young,” and I saw the 609 area code, and I was like, “I really think this might be the same…”
L: That’s crazy! Wait, what business is it?
M: Um, just at the Sierra Club, you know.
L: Oh! At the Sierra Club, you’re kidding.
M: Yeah, just doing my part taking incoming calls.
L: Oh, wow.
M: And I usually would not do this to a member or caller, but I just was feeling so urgent, “I have to say something. I know it’s her.”
L: Yeah!
M: “I’m sorry to ask… but is your partner a composer by any chance?” And she was just like, “How on earth do you know that?”
L: That. Is. Insane.
M: Weird tiny universes.
L: When did that happen?
M: Ohh, like a year ago.
L: Wow.
M: And I tried super hard to make it seem less creepy too. I made sure to let her know I work with Drag City — the same label that has been reissuing those records.
L: That doesn’t sound creepy at all. It’s just really funny.
M: Yeah, that’s my closest to talking to him.
L: That’s cool, have you told Scott [McGaughey, at Drag City] that?
M: I did! Yeah. Funny.
L: So… I wanted to ask you about your family. Besides Laura, do other people in your family play music? I’m assuming music is big in your family?
M: Yeah. Definitely a musical family. My father plays music. My mother doesn’t, but she was very friendly and supportive of having a musical family. Where, you know, it’s not a big deal, there’s instruments everywhere, you’re just encouraged to play, there’s this piano, there’s flea market instruments the kids can experiment with… You know, that’s just how it is, it’s not a big deal, it’s just normal, natural to do that.
L: Yup.
M: So that’s very much how I grew up.
L: Do you have other siblings? Or is it just Laura?
M: Oh, just Laura. Yeah, just the four of us.
L: And did you and Laura self-teach yourselves how to play?
M: No, we took proper piano lessons, but that’s about it. So, guitar was self-taught, but I did have that foundation. And my father is self-taught guitar — his main instrument is trombone.
L: Oh, wow.
M: So he’s way more of a jazzer guy than I am…
L: Oh, wow.
M: But he had a classical guitar around, which he was, again, self-taught, but he’s really musical and can pick some stuff out. But it was more just kind of a home amusement.
L: Mm-hm.
M: So there was a guitar around, but I didn’t really play it that seriously until… Actually probably until Espers…
L: Oh really?
M: I was like, “Ok, this is my job in the band now, I really better stop being so casual about the guitar.”
L: Wow, I had no idea!
M: There’s stuff with Laura too, but that was pretty off and on… But yeah, it wasn’t until Espers that made me really…
L: Play more.
M: Like really made me raise the bar on what I could do.
L: Wow, that’s really cool. Did Laura get into playing guitar and other stuff before you and then become an influence on you? Or did you guys just kinda play together?
M: I’m sure it was, but we were kind of, at that point… She had a couple electric guitars that were fun for me to play. But she tended to do more flat picking. I think the fingerstyle thing — I kinda came to that on my own.
L: Oh wow. That’s really cool.
M: I think that’s also because I used to play the classical at home, and I never took to strumming — getting into dreadnought strum and stuff like that. That was fun, it was good for writing, but it wasn’t really until I started to get the sense of fingerstyle stuff that guitar really became my…
L: Your instrument.
M: I was just less of a drifter with it, and I was just like, “No, I really want to play this.” [laughs] Instead of just pick it up and mess around.
L: That’s really cool… So, people you’ve toured with in the past… I know Bert Jansch… Sharon van Etten?
M: Yeah.
L: Will Oldham?
M: Mm-hm.
L: I was gonna ask — this includes any ones I’m missing too — I know when I’ve toured with other people, there’s always something I pick up, or something interesting to think about, or just some new food for thought that I get from a tour, traveling with another artist. Is there anything interesting from those past tours that you were…?
M: Oh yeah, certainly. All of them.
L: Yeah.
M: I mean, with Bert, that’s a bit intimidating at first.
L: I can only imagine.
M: Well, actually the whole time.
L: I can only imagine. I don’t even know what that would be like.
M: He was very reserved. I don’t know if you ever met him or were around him?
L: I never got to, no…
M: He’s not standoff-ish by any means, but he’s just not a huge —
L: Center-of-attention guy.
M: Yeah, he wasn’t a big ego person… But you could get some stories out sometimes. And also Lauren, his wife — unfortunately both are no longer here — but they were such an awesome couple. Lauren was completely comfortable with the social side of things.
L: Mm-hm.
M: And definitely some good stories too, again.
Some musicians are just great at being on stage. They’re a pleasure to be around and they walk on stage and it’s just so — great. I do not have those skills.
L: So, watching him perform…?
M: He was just always working. You know, he wasn’t very well during those tours.
L: Ohh.
M: But he was just happy and willing to be working. I played a show or two with him when he was doing all those shows opening up for Neil Young.
L: Mm-hm.
M: But he seemed to really be loving those. He was playing amazingly, singing amazingly. But he had a couple small shows that I opened for him. One at Johnny Brenda’s [in Philly], and that was when I felt like, “this is the most worthwhile I’ve ever been to music” because he had to come down from those rickety stage stairs at Johnny Brenda’s and it wasn’t looking too easy —
L: Oh yeah.
M: I just put my arm up to him, and he gave me a hug, it stabilized everything and it was such like… a much cooler and more awesome way to come off stage than him having to feel all rickety about some stupid staircase.
[laughing]
L: Aww.
M: I was like, “Ok, now I have a reason to be here.” [laughing] So that was great.
Bert Jansch and Meg Baird Backstage — Arthur Nights [Photo by Alissa Anderson, 2006]
L: That’s cool. So, I was going to ask about touring. I like to ask people if they have health practices, or rituals, or routines, or things that they try to do, like a discipline or something, on tour. Not everyone really does, but I just thought I’d ask, see if there’s something interesting that you’ve kind of come to after touring so much?
M: It’s really important to move around every day.
L: Yeah.
M: So, Frisbee.
L: Frisbee? That’s a good one.
M: Or something. Anything! Catch, or something that won’t break any windows… Yeah, you have to…
L: Yeah, for sure.
M: Just trying to find a way to move around every day. And when there’s an off night, where there might be some sort of party, or a dancing opportunity, or swimming. Even if you think it’s corny or you want to get rest, you have to. There’s something about the sitting still. So much sitting still. It’s no good for your brain and your body.
L: I saw a sign, it was in relation to office work, but it said, “Sitting is the new Smoking.”
M: It’s true, yeah. I work on the fifth floor now, I take the stairs twice a day.
L: Oh, that’s good.
M: It’s not much, but you walk in the door thinking “I’m just going to go up there and sit…” Survival skills. [laughs]
L: Yeah, survival skills, exactly. So, I figured out that our last Watersports show was actually with you and Utrillo [Kushner, member of Comets on Fire, plays solo as Colossal Yes] at the Latvian Society in Philly [in 2010].
M: Oh yeah! I remember.
L: I didn’t even really realize that that was the last time Watersports played… And then I was thinking about the Goodbye Blue Monday show [in Brooklyn in 2006] that the three of us played — that was an early solo show for you, right?
M: That was my first solo show.
L: Ever?
M: I didn’t even exist as a solo artist.
L: Oh wow, I forgot.
M: It was just posed as, “Would Meg play a show by herself?”
L: Yeah, it was Russ’ idea. [laughs]
M: Yeah. And I said “Ok.”
L: That’s really crazy. I forgot that it was that new.
M: Yeah. It was new.
L: I mean, you had obviously — you’ve been playing music forever, so it wasn’t like —
M: Yeah. It wasn’t a brand new thing. It wasn’t as if I’d never played in front of an audience.
L: No. And obviously Espers was very, very established at that point, so…
M: Yeah.
L: But that was your first time performing solo.
M: Yes, absolute first time.
L: That’s cool.
M: Maybe I played one time in Brooke’s [Sietinsons of Espers] living room, for like one song.
L: Ok. [laughs]
M: Which is almost like playing at home… [laughs] That was my first, yeah. I remember it very well. It was very funny and awkward. Emotional, too, for other reasons.
L: Oh yeah, that’s right.
M: It could’ve just been funny — should have. Remember the tiki stool?
L: Yes. [laughs] We really should have — there should have been a better chair.
M: I was opened up to the possibility that being on stage could be really consumed with the thought of how strangely I’m sitting on a really bizarre and hopefully funny chair.
L: [laughs] It wasn’t your fault.
M: “What is that like for everyone?” Yeah, it was the opening of the chasm of thoughts you can have in your head —
L: When you’re playing?
M: Just wondering where do you draw that line, like, how much do you share with your audience? Are you a comedian? Are you just keeping all focus on the music…? And that’s just a tiny part of it, but that was probably my first experience of “Wow there’s a lot of attention on you, when you’re just by yourself.” How do you even deal with that on a basic anthropological level? Something that could feel really threatening…
L: Mm-hm.
[laughing]
M: Kind of on a reptilian brain level, you’re probably like, “They could kill me, they could eat me.”
[laughing]
L: It must feel different by now, though, after you’ve done it so long.
M: It does, but really not that different. It’s more, you just manage it.
L: Hm. Mm-hm.
M: I couldn’t believe it. I just couldn’t believe how nervous I was, because I’d performed so much already.
L: I know. Well, the chair didn’t help. [laughs]
M: No, that was, actually the chair was funny. I thought it was funny. Especially because that Goodbye Blue Monday spot was so… that was a little treasure there.
Photo of Goodbye Blue Monday before it closed
L: Yeah, totally! Definitely a treasure. I miss it. So do you get nervous still when you play? I mean, there’s always nervous energy, I know, but…
M: Yeah, you just have to manage a lot more adrenaline. I think that I thought, “Oh wow it’s a whole new challenge now.” You have to figure out how to physically manage all the extra adrenaline to do this.
L: I feel like you intentionally sat in the background during live shows with Espers, even though you had such a leading role in the songwriting for that band. I saw Espers play several times [before I knew you] without even noticing that YOU were Meg.
M: Mm-hm.
L: I feel like you were just very naturally not forward or something, physically.
M: And you know, I really like collaborating, and I really like ensemble playing. Playing solo — it’s good, it’s a good challenge and everything, but it wasn’t something I was dying to do. It kind of just came about and… made sense to do. Sort of like the chain of events that led to my playing drums, and now playing drums and singing, that’s really funny.
L: Oh yeah, is that hard?
M: It’s pretty hard, but it’s easier for someone who is more introverted and shyer. Some musicians are just great at being on stage. They’re a pleasure to be around and they walk on stage and it’s just so — great. I do not have those skills.
[laughing]
L: I don’t either.
M: And yeah, when you have the drums, you’re safe.
L: Ohh because you’re behind them.
M: You’ve got this whole kit. Yeah, so you’re totally safe.
L: [laughs] That’s interesting.
M: And also, your separation issues are so vast, you know. You can’t think too much about all those plaguing-in-the-back-of-your-head thoughts. It’s a lot more physical, which is why I like drums so much. You’re just keeping up and you can’t — at least I can’t — let in too many thoughts that aren’t important to the music. [laughs]
L: Right.
M: Or what’s keeping things going.
L: So was Watery Love the first time you played drums in a band?
M: Yes.
L: But you played for fun in the past, maybe?
M: Nah, just when there was a kit around, you know. If you’re a musician, you know how it goes —
L: You just play around, yeah.
M: But that’s about it. Richie and Max, they didn’t want a skilled drummer.
L: I know. [laughs]
M: They wanted someone to play — I mean, at first they just wanted me to play one note on a snare or something.
L: Uh-huh. [laughs]
M: It was really ridiculous at first.
L: Russ and I and everyone I knew in Philly really liked your style of playing drums. I know I talked to people about it all the time.
M: Thank you.
L: But it must be different, playing in Heron Oblivion.
M: Uhh, it’s not a lot different.
L: Really?
M: Because I don’t have a lot of moves. I play how I play, and we practice, but I don’t practice alone. I don’t think I have the capacity to take on even more right now. I’m playing just by hearing. I listen to great drummers all the time. I know what that sounds like, but I’m just very crudely approximating something that I hear. I’m not breaking down the mechanics or technique when I pick up on something like, “Wow, what is that insane foot pedal thing that happens there?” I’m stuck with “Well, it sounds sort of like this?” And keeping time.
L: Uh-huh.
M: That’s about it.
Meg playing drums, taken from Heron Oblivion Facebook page
L: So, do you have long-term plans? How do you see yourself in a couple years, or 5 years, or 10 years? Or are you not thinking that far?
M: Uhh..
L: If it’s too personal, you don’t have to —
M: I mean, I actually think about it all the time because it’s really stressful!
L: I know! I’m in the same boat. I’m stressed about that stuff all the time too.
M: Yeah. “How do I keep playing music?” You know, I don’t have any big ideas about making a living just by music. I know how difficult it is to try and live as any type of artist of any kind, and keep working, and not, you know… I don’t have any big ideas about what’s coming to me. But I don’t want to stop. Yeah, so I probably think about it all the time.
L: It’s hard.
M: How to… the best way to keep those things together. But I’m sure I’ll keep doing it, and I’m probably going to have to learn how to record more at home, and things like that. That’s probably a necessity. But yeah, I don’t see anything stopping. I just don’t think that’s going to make sense… to stop.
L: Yeah… I mean, it would be impossible to stop.
M: Mm-hm. And yeah, the whole work/life/art… fitting-art-in thing. I mean, it’s not like we’re the only ones —
L: No, I know!
M: So many… it’s just such a common thing. It’s huge, though, it’s a huge thing.
L: It is huge.
M: Even though it’s not very fun to talk about or hear about. [laughs]
L: Well, I’m asking you because a part of me wants to ask every artist I meet… I want someone to give me this… insight. But I don’t think there is any. [laughs]
M: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s just getting harder. It’s hard for everyone. I really don’t know.
L: Yeah.
M: I mean, you’ve done a lot of work in that way, where you found a good place to live that took some of the financial pressures off — But it’s like it’s still too hard —
L: It’s still hard.
M: Even when you do that. Yeah.
L: I mean, it’s the same for you. You guys are in a pretty manageable place. But then it’s still hard.
M: Yeah, because, I mean we’re living in insane San Francisco. We’re in a rent control… we can’t live anywhere else within two hours’ drive. We’re in too little space, and you know, we’re grateful to have the cheap place, but it’s certainly not…
L: It’s not the answer.
M: It’s not like, “Whoa we got it made.” [laughs]
L: No.
M: It’s still a challenge.
L: Yeah, that’s how we feel, for sure.
M: I’m not sure what to do.
L: I don’t either.
M: I just think it’s harder in general, for most everyone.
L: Right.
M: Anybody who’s not bringing in above a “fixed” amount is feeling the squeeze… pretty hard. If not now, then soon.
L: Yeah.
M: And I feel like when a lot of us made decisions to stick with our work, even 10 or so years back, that we felt like, “Well, I’ll just have less, a lot less you know, and that’s OK.”
L: Exactly.
M: You know, “I’m 100% OK with that.” It didn’t look as bleak —
L: No. [laughs]
M: — as it’s turned out in the past five or six years.
L: Yeah.
M: I think that it was sort of a different decision.
L: It’s a different thing now.
M: It seemed like you were taking it down to the survival level.
L: Exactly. But now it seems like… it’s worse than that. [laughs]
M: Yeah, and I mean, even look at the things going on in the labor movement right now, where fast food workers are organizing for $15 an hour. And $15 an hour is really hard to get, hard to live on. The concept of a living wage is just a complete freaking mess right now.
L: Yes.
M: It’s kind of rough out there right now. I feel that so much, being here. Whew! You feel it so extremely.
L: Really?
M: It’s almost, you feel it physically, yeah. The have/have-not — the contrast is so extreme.
L: And every article you read about this issue, about any issue regarding gentrification or housing costs, or housing availability, or you know, the haves and the have-nots — San Francisco is the first example that comes up.
M: Yeah. It’s pretty ghastly. It’s shocking. And I’m sure it’s not contained here. I think it’s just a really drastic version of, probably, everywhere. It’s so awful that you really can’t ever put it out of your mind — how uncaring it is out there, it is perpetually haunting. I don’t know. There’s another term I heard recently — it’s something related to conspicuous consumption… Oh, “trickle-down consumption.” Something like that. I was just reading a little bit about that. They might be onto something there.
L: I’ll look that up — I haven’t read about that yet.
M: Well, maybe this will be a helpful concept, who knows. You know, whether or not it’s really doing anything… It was a helpful concept just to even read about, or see that other people were writing about. There’s a few nice articles. [laughing]
L: That sounds good.
M: I think it came out of some academic work. Maybe University of Chicago. I really don’t know anything about this. You’ll see. See if it helps you.
L: Ok, cool. [laughs] Well, that’s all I have… I’m really excited for your record!
M: Thanks!
[Top Photo: Richie Charles]
More about: Blues Control, Lea Cho, Meg Baird
