L: That’s interesting too because I feel like this record is dreamier. In a technical sense, it has more reverb than your last records, and maybe that goes along with that too?
M: Yeah.
L: Sort of like a mental state instead of stark reality?
M: Yeah, I definitely was trying to give myself the chance to go for a less realistic capture.
L: Yeah, I know what you mean.
M: And I just wanted to have color — the second record was more like pencils, sketches.
L: Yeah.
M: Color, color, color, color.
L: That’s cool.
M: More psychological, I guess. [laughs]
L: Yeah. Did that bring you to some direct influences, in terms of that sound? I know you mentioned, I think in an email, Virginia Astley?
M: Mm-hm.
L: And there was another one you mentioned…I can’t remember right now. [I went back and looked, it was Loren Auerbach & Bert Jansch: After the Long Night ]
M: Definitely Virginia Astley, but not as much about using the color or getting into more of the effects. I was really being more influenced by rock music and rock records. Like classic rock, you know, even like Live at Pompeii —
L: [laughs] Cool.
M: You know, not so much of, “I wanna dissect their sound and put it in and re-do it,” but just the way that all those sounds are lodged in my musical ear so deeply.
L: Totally.
M: I was pulling more on those influences than I have in other records, where I was obviously more folk-y, acoustic-y… And that was nice because there was just more gear around. Charlie’s got so much more electronic and rock gear, and Eric’s studio was really a fun place to use more effects.
L: I like it, I think it turned out really, really nice. So, bringing Max [Milgram] back into it —
M: [laughs]
L: I know that he’s a huge fan of those Gila records [guitarist Conny Veit from Popol Vuh’s band]. Did you ever talk to him about those? I heard maybe some influence — or the electric playing on your record just reminded me of Conny Veit. Did you play any electric, or was it Charlie?
M: Well, that’s all mostly Charlie, but Popol Vuh, that’s a huge — that was definitely one of the more, like, “Let’s really — ”
L: Really?
M: Yeah, like, “Let’s not shy away from this massive influence.”
L: That’s awesome.
M: You know, there are some influences that are more just sound or history, but that was one of the more concrete, shaping influences.
L: Yeah, I heard that in a huge way, and that made me really happy because I’m a huge fan of that era of Popol Vuh too.
M: Mm-hm.
L: That guitar playing was cool.
M: That’s very much Charlie’s guitar-work, and that was an early common ground that we found when we were first trying to play together as a duo, even just live, that was an early common reference point.
L: And also mixing the piano with that is a huge [Popol Vuh] influence, too. [on “Past Houses”]
M: Mm-hm.
L: And you played that piano, right, I’m assuming?
M: I did. Yeah, I played that piano.
L: That’s really great.
M: We got that one down because we were house sitting at a really nice house with a piano.
L: Wait, you wrote it there, or you recorded it there?
M: Yeah, we wrote it there because we had a piano… And we were just house sitting with views of the Pacific.
L: Oh cool! So did you guys demo everything at home before you went to Eric’s studio?
M: Umm… probably a lot of it was at least in some form of a demo, but this was the most on-the-fly I have ever worked.
L: Oh wow.
M: Things were really coming together in the studio. Nothing was blank-slate, all the songs had starting points, but… this was the first time I was able to work that way. Honestly, it’s just kind of how I had to work [laughs]. I was working at the Sierra Club, doing my day-job, leaving, walking over to Eric’s studio in Chinatown, and then working all night, waking up, going back to work.
L: No! Really?
M: Yeah… And then working the weekends. So, as far as prep time, you know, when you do playback and you kind of finesse some lyrics, or reevaluate performances… I didn’t have that. And since I wasn’t totally-prepared, as in totally knowing all the songs, I had to just… perform [snaps fingers].
L: Yeah, that’s cool.
M: I spent time demo-ing stuff up, so it certainly wasn’t totally on-the-fly. But it was edgy for me — I usually have the basics super mapped-out.
L: Totally.
M: It was hard, but it was good, it made me feel — I had to be a lot more vulnerable. I couldn’t be, you know, “Ms. Practice Practice” and fall back on that.
L: [laughs]
M: Not like, “Let’s get it in a couple takes, I know this!”
The ESP factor can be kind of spooky when it’s siblings, you know. [laughs] It’s beyond even like, somebody that you’ve collaborated with a lot. It gets pretty spooky and we just… know.
L: Do you think it helped to be working with Charlie, to be in that mode?
M: Oh yeah, it definitely did. Also just the way that Eric and Bob work in their studio, it felt a lot more — almost more artist-in-residence vs. full-on “We’re on the clock! We gotta get this!”
L: Yeah.
M: We didn’t want to go crazy over-schedule, but their deadlines weren’t as hard and fast as other places I’ve worked. And we’re all based here. It wasn’t as if I’d traveled there and was like, “I gotta leave in two weeks, so we have to finish…” And other projects were booked around mine too, so there was some softness to the schedule. So that was the first time I ever worked that way for my solo stuff.
L: That’s cool.
M: And Charlie’s input from his rock background was really fun to range out into that territory.
L: It sounds fun!
M: To get to mix the two. Because obviously I really like heavy music, rock music. It’s just, I’ve always been in quieter outfits before.
L: I know.
M: And kind of haven’t really had the gear, you know?
L: Yeah, I don’t know if people out in the world are aware that your musical knowledge is so wide. You know about so much stuff! So when you’re making a folk record, that’s a decision on your part to —
M: To focus, yeah, to narrow down.
L: Exactly.
M: Yeah, so that was really fun. And you know, it felt like a big expansion. For me, anyway. I don’t know how it sounds on the other side. [laughs]
L: Well, it’s definitely different. I knew when I first heard it that it was different in that way, but then I went back and listened to your earlier records again, and when I heard the first one, I was like, “Whoa!” I forgot that Dear Companion was that direct.
M: Spare, yeah, very spare.
L: It was super spare. Which is great, though. It’s great that you can range all the way around.
M: Charlie was also a good influence on the songcraft part, because I think I’ve always tended to be really trad and shied away from even things like bridges.
L: Mm-hm.
M: I was always kind of like, “Why bridges?”
[laughing]
L: Yeah.
M: And Charlie was very encouraging. “Just try it, they’re good. They work.” Like, “You can’t argue with every Beatles record and every…”
L: Right.
M: “Just try it on.” I was like, “Ok… you were right. Bridges work.”
L: [laughs]
M: That was fun, to throw some “songwriter” craft in there, and to be encouraged to branch out on the idea of songwriting itself. I don’t know if changes like these come through, or how they sound to other people on the other side —
L: Sure.
M: For me, it was a big — it was a leap. [laughs]
L: It sounded like a leap, but not a leap in a bad way like you were reaching. It sounded like a natural progression to me. I guess because I already know that you’re into that music too.
M: Mm-hm.
L: It sounded very comfortable. I was wondering, do you think this record is… Does it sound sadder than the other ones?
M: In some ways, it’s sadder, but…
L: But you’re not sadder these days, I know that you’re not sadder!
M: No, not sadder! Yeah, it’s supposed to be higher contrast.
L: Ohhh.
M: Sadder… and happier. You know, less middle-ground, less “soft line on a landscape.” More extreme, higher contrast in everything. More romantic.
L: Yeah. [laughs]
M: Greater depth of color. And that was, you know, it can seem kind of corny to be super influenced by place, but I totally am. It’s hard not to be.
L: No, you have to be.
M: Yeah.
L: I mean, especially a move that big.
M: Yeah. Where it’s like you’re in a whole different climate. It doesn’t even make sense to your internal compass… The Pacific Ocean is dominating this area, and it’s just very different from living in the Gulf Stream. So I feel like that’s something that gets into classic albums that are, you know, pegged as being Northern California.
L: Mm-hm.
M: But it was also my attempt to say, “Oh wait, I just might really get this myself even.”
[laughing]
M: “…Now that I’m living here, maybe I kind of get it! What ‘that thing’ is!”
L: Right.
M: So I was really reaching to try and get some of that “Crown of creation/No place to go” in there.
L: Yeah. And how long were you in Philly before you moved to San Francisco? Quite a while. So it’s a huge marker for change.
M: Over 15 years. 20? Almost 20 years?
L: Yeah.
M: And I grew up in South Jersey. So it’s like the same general metro area. [laughs]
L: Yeah, that’s a big one… So was there a conscious decision to not do any covers on this record?
M: It wasn’t a preset plan — I was open to covers, they just weren’t coming together, and by the time I realized it…
L: You didn’t need to.
M: Yeah. And the closer I got to that time period where you’re like, “Maybe I’ll throw this together” you know [laughs]. By that point I was like, “No, I think I’d rather not.” It’s the first time where I decided, “No, I think I’m actually going to just steal moves from songs that I might tend to cover and actually just write my own song.”
More about: Blues Control, Lea Cho, Meg Baird
