L: But you found that record before Drag City reissued it, right?
M: Mm-hm. Yeah, I mean, I didn’t find it personally. Nick Branigan [of Hands and Knees in Boston] has it.
L: Oh, that’s right! Nick, yeah.
M: Yeah, so I first heard it through Nick.
L: That’s cool, so have you thought about getting in touch with him? I know he’s still in the area. Russ knows — I forget where he is now.
M: Yeah, he’s around greater Princeton. No, I’ve never talked to him directly… In a really random chain of events, I received a customer service call from his partner, from his wife. [laughs]
L: What?
M: You can see the caller info for incoming calls…
L: Yeah…?
M: And…
L: And then it was his wife?
M: So I saw “Matthew Young,” and I saw the 609 area code, and I was like, “I really think this might be the same…”
L: That’s crazy! Wait, what business is it?
M: Um, just at the Sierra Club, you know.
L: Oh! At the Sierra Club, you’re kidding.
M: Yeah, just doing my part taking incoming calls.
L: Oh, wow.
M: And I usually would not do this to a member or caller, but I just was feeling so urgent, “I have to say something. I know it’s her.”
L: Yeah!
M: “I’m sorry to ask… but is your partner a composer by any chance?” And she was just like, “How on earth do you know that?”
L: That. Is. Insane.
M: Weird tiny universes.
L: When did that happen?
M: Ohh, like a year ago.
L: Wow.
M: And I tried super hard to make it seem less creepy too. I made sure to let her know I work with Drag City — the same label that has been reissuing those records.
L: That doesn’t sound creepy at all. It’s just really funny.
M: Yeah, that’s my closest to talking to him.
L: That’s cool, have you told Scott [McGaughey, at Drag City] that?
M: I did! Yeah. Funny.
L: So… I wanted to ask you about your family. Besides Laura, do other people in your family play music? I’m assuming music is big in your family?
M: Yeah. Definitely a musical family. My father plays music. My mother doesn’t, but she was very friendly and supportive of having a musical family. Where, you know, it’s not a big deal, there’s instruments everywhere, you’re just encouraged to play, there’s this piano, there’s flea market instruments the kids can experiment with… You know, that’s just how it is, it’s not a big deal, it’s just normal, natural to do that.
L: Yup.
M: So that’s very much how I grew up.
L: Do you have other siblings? Or is it just Laura?
M: Oh, just Laura. Yeah, just the four of us.
L: And did you and Laura self-teach yourselves how to play?
M: No, we took proper piano lessons, but that’s about it. So, guitar was self-taught, but I did have that foundation. And my father is self-taught guitar — his main instrument is trombone.
L: Oh, wow.
M: So he’s way more of a jazzer guy than I am…
L: Oh, wow.
M: But he had a classical guitar around, which he was, again, self-taught, but he’s really musical and can pick some stuff out. But it was more just kind of a home amusement.
L: Mm-hm.
M: So there was a guitar around, but I didn’t really play it that seriously until… Actually probably until Espers…
L: Oh really?
M: I was like, “Ok, this is my job in the band now, I really better stop being so casual about the guitar.”
L: Wow, I had no idea!
M: There’s stuff with Laura too, but that was pretty off and on… But yeah, it wasn’t until Espers that made me really…
L: Play more.
M: Like really made me raise the bar on what I could do.
L: Wow, that’s really cool. Did Laura get into playing guitar and other stuff before you and then become an influence on you? Or did you guys just kinda play together?
M: I’m sure it was, but we were kind of, at that point… She had a couple electric guitars that were fun for me to play. But she tended to do more flat picking. I think the fingerstyle thing — I kinda came to that on my own.
L: Oh wow. That’s really cool.
M: I think that’s also because I used to play the classical at home, and I never took to strumming — getting into dreadnought strum and stuff like that. That was fun, it was good for writing, but it wasn’t really until I started to get the sense of fingerstyle stuff that guitar really became my…
L: Your instrument.
M: I was just less of a drifter with it, and I was just like, “No, I really want to play this.” [laughs] Instead of just pick it up and mess around.
L: That’s really cool… So, people you’ve toured with in the past… I know Bert Jansch… Sharon van Etten?
M: Yeah.
L: Will Oldham?
M: Mm-hm.
L: I was gonna ask — this includes any ones I’m missing too — I know when I’ve toured with other people, there’s always something I pick up, or something interesting to think about, or just some new food for thought that I get from a tour, traveling with another artist. Is there anything interesting from those past tours that you were…?
M: Oh yeah, certainly. All of them.
L: Yeah.
M: I mean, with Bert, that’s a bit intimidating at first.
L: I can only imagine.
M: Well, actually the whole time.
L: I can only imagine. I don’t even know what that would be like.
M: He was very reserved. I don’t know if you ever met him or were around him?
L: I never got to, no…
M: He’s not standoff-ish by any means, but he’s just not a huge —
L: Center-of-attention guy.
M: Yeah, he wasn’t a big ego person… But you could get some stories out sometimes. And also Lauren, his wife — unfortunately both are no longer here — but they were such an awesome couple. Lauren was completely comfortable with the social side of things.
L: Mm-hm.
M: And definitely some good stories too, again.
Some musicians are just great at being on stage. They’re a pleasure to be around and they walk on stage and it’s just so — great. I do not have those skills.
L: So, watching him perform…?
M: He was just always working. You know, he wasn’t very well during those tours.
L: Ohh.
M: But he was just happy and willing to be working. I played a show or two with him when he was doing all those shows opening up for Neil Young.
L: Mm-hm.
M: But he seemed to really be loving those. He was playing amazingly, singing amazingly. But he had a couple small shows that I opened for him. One at Johnny Brenda’s [in Philly], and that was when I felt like, “this is the most worthwhile I’ve ever been to music” because he had to come down from those rickety stage stairs at Johnny Brenda’s and it wasn’t looking too easy —
L: Oh yeah.
M: I just put my arm up to him, and he gave me a hug, it stabilized everything and it was such like… a much cooler and more awesome way to come off stage than him having to feel all rickety about some stupid staircase.
[laughing]
L: Aww.
M: I was like, “Ok, now I have a reason to be here.” [laughing] So that was great.
Bert Jansch and Meg Baird Backstage — Arthur Nights [Photo by Alissa Anderson, 2006]
L: That’s cool. So, I was going to ask about touring. I like to ask people if they have health practices, or rituals, or routines, or things that they try to do, like a discipline or something, on tour. Not everyone really does, but I just thought I’d ask, see if there’s something interesting that you’ve kind of come to after touring so much?
M: It’s really important to move around every day.
L: Yeah.
M: So, Frisbee.
L: Frisbee? That’s a good one.
M: Or something. Anything! Catch, or something that won’t break any windows… Yeah, you have to…
L: Yeah, for sure.
M: Just trying to find a way to move around every day. And when there’s an off night, where there might be some sort of party, or a dancing opportunity, or swimming. Even if you think it’s corny or you want to get rest, you have to. There’s something about the sitting still. So much sitting still. It’s no good for your brain and your body.
L: I saw a sign, it was in relation to office work, but it said, “Sitting is the new Smoking.”
M: It’s true, yeah. I work on the fifth floor now, I take the stairs twice a day.
L: Oh, that’s good.
M: It’s not much, but you walk in the door thinking “I’m just going to go up there and sit…” Survival skills. [laughs]
L: Yeah, survival skills, exactly. So, I figured out that our last Watersports show was actually with you and Utrillo [Kushner, member of Comets on Fire, plays solo as Colossal Yes] at the Latvian Society in Philly [in 2010].
M: Oh yeah! I remember.
L: I didn’t even really realize that that was the last time Watersports played… And then I was thinking about the Goodbye Blue Monday show [in Brooklyn in 2006] that the three of us played — that was an early solo show for you, right?
M: That was my first solo show.
L: Ever?
M: I didn’t even exist as a solo artist.
L: Oh wow, I forgot.
M: It was just posed as, “Would Meg play a show by herself?”
L: Yeah, it was Russ’ idea. [laughs]
M: Yeah. And I said “Ok.”
L: That’s really crazy. I forgot that it was that new.
M: Yeah. It was new.
L: I mean, you had obviously — you’ve been playing music forever, so it wasn’t like —
M: Yeah. It wasn’t a brand new thing. It wasn’t as if I’d never played in front of an audience.
L: No. And obviously Espers was very, very established at that point, so…
M: Yeah.
L: But that was your first time performing solo.
M: Yes, absolute first time.
L: That’s cool.
M: Maybe I played one time in Brooke’s [Sietinsons of Espers] living room, for like one song.
L: Ok. [laughs]
M: Which is almost like playing at home… [laughs] That was my first, yeah. I remember it very well. It was very funny and awkward. Emotional, too, for other reasons.
L: Oh yeah, that’s right.
M: It could’ve just been funny — should have. Remember the tiki stool?
L: Yes. [laughs] We really should have — there should have been a better chair.
M: I was opened up to the possibility that being on stage could be really consumed with the thought of how strangely I’m sitting on a really bizarre and hopefully funny chair.
L: [laughs] It wasn’t your fault.
M: “What is that like for everyone?” Yeah, it was the opening of the chasm of thoughts you can have in your head —
L: When you’re playing?
M: Just wondering where do you draw that line, like, how much do you share with your audience? Are you a comedian? Are you just keeping all focus on the music…? And that’s just a tiny part of it, but that was probably my first experience of “Wow there’s a lot of attention on you, when you’re just by yourself.” How do you even deal with that on a basic anthropological level? Something that could feel really threatening…
L: Mm-hm.
[laughing]
M: Kind of on a reptilian brain level, you’re probably like, “They could kill me, they could eat me.”
[laughing]
L: It must feel different by now, though, after you’ve done it so long.
M: It does, but really not that different. It’s more, you just manage it.
L: Hm. Mm-hm.
M: I couldn’t believe it. I just couldn’t believe how nervous I was, because I’d performed so much already.
L: I know. Well, the chair didn’t help. [laughs]
M: No, that was, actually the chair was funny. I thought it was funny. Especially because that Goodbye Blue Monday spot was so… that was a little treasure there.
Photo of Goodbye Blue Monday before it closed
L: Yeah, totally! Definitely a treasure. I miss it. So do you get nervous still when you play? I mean, there’s always nervous energy, I know, but…
M: Yeah, you just have to manage a lot more adrenaline. I think that I thought, “Oh wow it’s a whole new challenge now.” You have to figure out how to physically manage all the extra adrenaline to do this.
L: I feel like you intentionally sat in the background during live shows with Espers, even though you had such a leading role in the songwriting for that band. I saw Espers play several times [before I knew you] without even noticing that YOU were Meg.
M: Mm-hm.
L: I feel like you were just very naturally not forward or something, physically.
M: And you know, I really like collaborating, and I really like ensemble playing. Playing solo — it’s good, it’s a good challenge and everything, but it wasn’t something I was dying to do. It kind of just came about and… made sense to do. Sort of like the chain of events that led to my playing drums, and now playing drums and singing, that’s really funny.
L: Oh yeah, is that hard?
M: It’s pretty hard, but it’s easier for someone who is more introverted and shyer. Some musicians are just great at being on stage. They’re a pleasure to be around and they walk on stage and it’s just so — great. I do not have those skills.
[laughing]
L: I don’t either.
M: And yeah, when you have the drums, you’re safe.
L: Ohh because you’re behind them.
M: You’ve got this whole kit. Yeah, so you’re totally safe.
L: [laughs] That’s interesting.
M: And also, your separation issues are so vast, you know. You can’t think too much about all those plaguing-in-the-back-of-your-head thoughts. It’s a lot more physical, which is why I like drums so much. You’re just keeping up and you can’t — at least I can’t — let in too many thoughts that aren’t important to the music. [laughs]
L: Right.
M: Or what’s keeping things going.
L: So was Watery Love the first time you played drums in a band?
M: Yes.
L: But you played for fun in the past, maybe?
M: Nah, just when there was a kit around, you know. If you’re a musician, you know how it goes —
L: You just play around, yeah.
M: But that’s about it. Richie and Max, they didn’t want a skilled drummer.
L: I know. [laughs]
M: They wanted someone to play — I mean, at first they just wanted me to play one note on a snare or something.
L: Uh-huh. [laughs]
M: It was really ridiculous at first.
L: Russ and I and everyone I knew in Philly really liked your style of playing drums. I know I talked to people about it all the time.
M: Thank you.
L: But it must be different, playing in Heron Oblivion.
M: Uhh, it’s not a lot different.
L: Really?
M: Because I don’t have a lot of moves. I play how I play, and we practice, but I don’t practice alone. I don’t think I have the capacity to take on even more right now. I’m playing just by hearing. I listen to great drummers all the time. I know what that sounds like, but I’m just very crudely approximating something that I hear. I’m not breaking down the mechanics or technique when I pick up on something like, “Wow, what is that insane foot pedal thing that happens there?” I’m stuck with “Well, it sounds sort of like this?” And keeping time.
L: Uh-huh.
M: That’s about it.
Meg playing drums, taken from Heron Oblivion Facebook page
L: So, do you have long-term plans? How do you see yourself in a couple years, or 5 years, or 10 years? Or are you not thinking that far?
M: Uhh..
L: If it’s too personal, you don’t have to —
M: I mean, I actually think about it all the time because it’s really stressful!
L: I know! I’m in the same boat. I’m stressed about that stuff all the time too.
M: Yeah. “How do I keep playing music?” You know, I don’t have any big ideas about making a living just by music. I know how difficult it is to try and live as any type of artist of any kind, and keep working, and not, you know… I don’t have any big ideas about what’s coming to me. But I don’t want to stop. Yeah, so I probably think about it all the time.
L: It’s hard.
M: How to… the best way to keep those things together. But I’m sure I’ll keep doing it, and I’m probably going to have to learn how to record more at home, and things like that. That’s probably a necessity. But yeah, I don’t see anything stopping. I just don’t think that’s going to make sense… to stop.
L: Yeah… I mean, it would be impossible to stop.
M: Mm-hm. And yeah, the whole work/life/art… fitting-art-in thing. I mean, it’s not like we’re the only ones —
L: No, I know!
M: So many… it’s just such a common thing. It’s huge, though, it’s a huge thing.
L: It is huge.
M: Even though it’s not very fun to talk about or hear about. [laughs]
L: Well, I’m asking you because a part of me wants to ask every artist I meet… I want someone to give me this… insight. But I don’t think there is any. [laughs]
M: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s just getting harder. It’s hard for everyone. I really don’t know.
L: Yeah.
M: I mean, you’ve done a lot of work in that way, where you found a good place to live that took some of the financial pressures off — But it’s like it’s still too hard —
L: It’s still hard.
M: Even when you do that. Yeah.
L: I mean, it’s the same for you. You guys are in a pretty manageable place. But then it’s still hard.
M: Yeah, because, I mean we’re living in insane San Francisco. We’re in a rent control… we can’t live anywhere else within two hours’ drive. We’re in too little space, and you know, we’re grateful to have the cheap place, but it’s certainly not…
L: It’s not the answer.
M: It’s not like, “Whoa we got it made.” [laughs]
L: No.
M: It’s still a challenge.
L: Yeah, that’s how we feel, for sure.
M: I’m not sure what to do.
L: I don’t either.
M: I just think it’s harder in general, for most everyone.
L: Right.
M: Anybody who’s not bringing in above a “fixed” amount is feeling the squeeze… pretty hard. If not now, then soon.
L: Yeah.
M: And I feel like when a lot of us made decisions to stick with our work, even 10 or so years back, that we felt like, “Well, I’ll just have less, a lot less you know, and that’s OK.”
L: Exactly.
M: You know, “I’m 100% OK with that.” It didn’t look as bleak —
L: No. [laughs]
M: — as it’s turned out in the past five or six years.
L: Yeah.
M: I think that it was sort of a different decision.
L: It’s a different thing now.
M: It seemed like you were taking it down to the survival level.
L: Exactly. But now it seems like… it’s worse than that. [laughs]
M: Yeah, and I mean, even look at the things going on in the labor movement right now, where fast food workers are organizing for $15 an hour. And $15 an hour is really hard to get, hard to live on. The concept of a living wage is just a complete freaking mess right now.
L: Yes.
M: It’s kind of rough out there right now. I feel that so much, being here. Whew! You feel it so extremely.
L: Really?
M: It’s almost, you feel it physically, yeah. The have/have-not — the contrast is so extreme.
L: And every article you read about this issue, about any issue regarding gentrification or housing costs, or housing availability, or you know, the haves and the have-nots — San Francisco is the first example that comes up.
M: Yeah. It’s pretty ghastly. It’s shocking. And I’m sure it’s not contained here. I think it’s just a really drastic version of, probably, everywhere. It’s so awful that you really can’t ever put it out of your mind — how uncaring it is out there, it is perpetually haunting. I don’t know. There’s another term I heard recently — it’s something related to conspicuous consumption… Oh, “trickle-down consumption.” Something like that. I was just reading a little bit about that. They might be onto something there.
L: I’ll look that up — I haven’t read about that yet.
M: Well, maybe this will be a helpful concept, who knows. You know, whether or not it’s really doing anything… It was a helpful concept just to even read about, or see that other people were writing about. There’s a few nice articles. [laughing]
L: That sounds good.
M: I think it came out of some academic work. Maybe University of Chicago. I really don’t know anything about this. You’ll see. See if it helps you.
L: Ok, cool. [laughs] Well, that’s all I have… I’m really excited for your record!
M: Thanks!
[Top Photo: Richie Charles]
More about: Blues Control, Lea Cho, Meg Baird
